Shaking...But Time-Based?

[Troy Jollimore]

Swore to GOD I would never come back here again, but this is driving me nuts. If I can get just one other informed opinion on this, it'll be worth it.

Just to clarify, I am VERY experienced at DIY repairs and diagnosis. Think full engine and chassis repairs/replacements. Though I don't like doing it...

My '16 Touring sedan is now out of extended warranty, with only 80k kms on it. The Winter decided to try tearing off the aluminum underpan (previous dealer service said they'd replaced all the fasteners. SURE, they did...) so I left it off until the nicer weather and my recent operation settled down enough for me to try reattaching it. In the meantime, it picked up a weird shake. This is the weird part. When you first start driving, it's fine. After about 3 minutes or so, you can just start to feel it. Then it grows in intensity. It's not related to engine rpm, and it KIND of behaves like a warped rotor or out of balance tire. It stays at the same rate no matter the speed, but is felt above 50kmh, is at it's worst at 95-105kph and starts to smooth out around 120kmh or so... Then, after about 10-15 minutes of driving, it just vanishes. The car drives smoothly after that. Always. Doesn't matter if I'm on the brakes while driving or not. Sometimes it comes back after I really apply the brakes. Sometimes not. But even when it does, it disappears soon after.

I can't see the missing underpan having anything to do with it. Though since it is missing, I just did my first non-dealer oil/filter change on it (Pennzoil Platinum 0w20 and a Castrol oil filter) and it's first CVT fluid change (Castrol TransMax CVT), along changing back to my 17" OEM wheels from the 16" winter steelies. The heavier wheels dampen the shaking somewhat, but it's still there. I also can't swear to it, but the car seems to be going through more gas since the shaking started, though it's also much quieter since the fluid changes.

So, any ideas? I did the CV joint test in a parking lot, and it was quiet. It just doesn't seem like a warped rotor when it comes and goes like that, and I don't want to start throwing parts at it. Though if I slow down during the shaking phase, I can still feel the car roll, then gradually hit an area of resistance (like a rotor warp) and then repeat.

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[Benster]

Would you happen to have a dial indicator? You could set it up on your rotors and check for warping. I've seen rotors do that sometimes. When was the last time you did a brake service on all 4 corners? That would be the easiest to rule out although from your symptoms it seems like something else but it is really weird for sure.

Do you feel it in the steering? The fact it goes away after a while is weird but if you say it comes back after you brake hard could be some loose hardware on your front subframe causing parts to rattle when driving maybe. Especially since you said you had issues with your belly pan this winter.

 

[boibuddha]

Is the shake happening most during acceleration? A bad/unbalanced CV can feel like an unbalanced wheel.

The time thing could be due to the grease heating up, liquifying and self balancing at high speeds.

Now that I think about it, it could be a wheel bearing too.

 

[Benster]

at 80k km parts being worn out is pretty unlikely. I guess it depends if you park it by the ocean without any undercoating too.

 

[calonzo]

First CVT fluid change after 8 years? Or the first time you have done the CVT fluid change?

 

[Troy Jollimore]

First CVT fluid change after 8 years? Or the first time you have done the CVT fluid change?

Very first change. I was going to do it anyway, but the car chimed in saying it was time anyway. Fluid came out pretty clear and light-coloured. Some metal particles on the drain plug, but that's what I've been let to expect from a CVT.

at 80k km parts being worn out is pretty unlikely. I guess it depends if you park it by the ocean without any undercoating too.

You would be surprised. Honda was nice enough to replace both rear shocks and mounts under warranty about a year or so ago for a clunk. But I still thought the mileage was low for an upper shock mount to go bad. Where I live IS one of the most hostile environments you can find for rust. Which is why I got it Krown undercoated from new, and reapplied every year. I intend to keep my cars for a while, though I used to drive them more.

Is the shake happening most during acceleration? A bad/unbalanced CV can feel like an unbalanced wheel.

The time thing could be due to the grease heating up, liquifying and self balancing at high speeds.

Now that I think about it, it could be a wheel bearing too.

No. It's strictly speed-based in that if you drive faster, it starts happening faster. Which speaks to your theory, which I share. Today, I started my drive home a bit closer to it than normal, so I reached home while the shake was happening rather than after it had stopped. I decided to do a check, and with three wheels cold, and the front driver's side wheel VERY hot, I tend to agree with your wheel bearing diagnosis. I started to hear a resonating sound that's a lot like a bearing as well.

Would you happen to have a dial indicator? You could set it up on your rotors and check for warping. I've seen rotors do that sometimes. When was the last time you did a brake service on all 4 corners? That would be the easiest to rule out although from your symptoms it seems like something else but it is really weird for sure.

Do you feel it in the steering? The fact it goes away after a while is weird but if you say it comes back after you brake hard could be some loose hardware on your front subframe causing parts to rattle when driving maybe. Especially since you said you had issues with your belly pan this winter.

I had issues with my rear rotors during the first year of ownership, and the dealer paid lots of attention to the brakes over the years. One of the techs told me they seem to be a bit fussier with rotors and calipers seizing than other cars. The rotors looked nice and even when I swapped my wheels, and the pads looked even, but you never can tell without a dial. I have the gear, just not the will! LOL...

It doesn't always come back after a hard brake. When it's shaking, and the brake is applied, you REALLY feel it in the steering. But if something else is out of line, you'd feel that, too. When cruising at highway speeds, it's a HARD clunk that you feel more in the chassis than the wheel. I was thinking axle/cv, but the reply I made to boibuddha above seems to lean more towards the wheel bearing.

Would have been much nicer had this happened under warranty last year... Bearings are supposed to last over 60k miles, usually...

 

[Benster]

With one hot wheel out of 4 you MAY have a bad wheel bearing as you stated above. Either that or your caliper is seizing up. Your car being 8 years old and driving in salty air and roads might get issues sooner than others.

As for your rear brakes, I found that the wunderladen bushing kit for the rear calipers works amazingly well. Had it on for just 5 months now but the rotors are wearing perfectly compared to the fronts that were serviced at the same time. It's a little expensive to get in Canada, but Unity performance can get it to you without having to deal with customs. Def worth the price though.

 

[Troy Jollimore]

Thanks, @Benster , though the abnormal gouging of the rear discs never came back after Honda changed them the first time.

As an update, I had to deviate from my usual route again the other day. On the second shorter drive, the front driver's side was getting hot. When I made the next short drive, it was REALLY hot. I elected to drive to work anyway, and didn't take the slow way, because...meh. Stuck to 55MPH or so on the highway, and to my surprise, the wheel was a bit cooler when I got there than it had been when I started. (Shaking was gone by then.) So that got me back thinking to brakes.

So, drove it the 15 miles out to my father's on Saturday, as he still enjoys working on cars. Found the inside pad on that wheel to be stuck pretty good. So forced it out, cleaned it up and lubricated, and reassembled. First minute of the test drive was great, but did a couple of 'brake checks'. A bit farther on noticed the shake returning. Back from the test drive, wheel was hot. Pulled the caliper again and pads flew out of their housings! So, no more sticking pads to blame. Further testing showed that when the engine was running, the piston would extend and release with the pedal... but would keep applying pressure to that brake so you could barely turn that rotor by hand with leverage. So... something wrong with the ABS module, perhaps? We couldn't quite get at the ABS sensor connector on that wheel to disconnect, I didn't want to pull the main connector to the ABS module, and pulling the multi-fuse unit with the ABS on it resulted in other systems shutting down (like transmission control, the display tried to show all the letters of the drives at the same time)... So I resolved to just drive it home and park it like that until I could get Honda or a 3rd party shop to look at replacing the ABS module. ($1,500 new from Honda! Yeeeeee...)

So I drove it home, going VERY light on the brakes (and I'm light on them, anyway). But I still had to stop a few times. No shaking. Throwing it into Neutral didn't have the same rate of deceleration that it had before. When I got home, the wheel temperature was... normal? This shouldn't be, since we had determined we couldn't FIX anything... The only thing I can think of was having the multi-fuse out, a number of modules yelled at me on startup that they had lost power. Perhaps the ABS module was 'rebooted', and now working the right way again? Guess I'll find out after the drive to and from work tomorrow...

 

[calonzo]

I would guess a sticky caliper before an ABS issue.

 

[Benster]

That is really weird, ABS could cause issues but I've never seen that happen before. I've definitely seen calipers getting close to seizing and even though they move in and out, they sometimes don't return far enough and cause problems over time. Not saying that's what it is, but for an 8 year old car driving in salt, it is a possibility. Def cheaper than an abs unit.

 

[Troy Jollimore]

I would guess a sticky caliper before an ABS issue.

Ironically, this Civic replaced an '00 VW Passat with 180k miles (245k kms) on it because I was doing nothing BUT unsticking calipers. Quality of the rebuilts were garbage at times, and I did them right, with tons of ceramic lubricant. They just kept seizing. So I figured a new car would fix it! LOL...

But no, the travel on the caliper on the pins was free and clear, nice and smooth. No binding, no lateral movement. Because I was thinking the same way you are.

That is really weird, ABS could cause issues but I've never seen that happen before. I've definitely seen calipers getting close to seizing and even though they move in and out, they sometimes don't return far enough and cause problems over time. Not saying that's what it is, but for an 8 year old car driving in salt, it is a possibility. Def cheaper than an abs unit.

I'm still watching it, but it's been working flawlessly ever since. Even got on the brakes a bit more aggressively coming off the highway this morning. That resulted in a VERY slight pulsation until I lightened up on them. Nothing more than what you'd expect. And the temp of that wheel was pretty much the same as the others when I checked after parking at work.

Like I said, the tell here was the piston would withdraw properly with the motor off. With the motor on, it would still withdraw, but either not enough, or it would reapply a little. Thankfully not enough to excessively wear the pads on that corner, either.

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