Reluctant return but necessary

[rednichols]

My OBD reader having misled me on what my CRV outputs power wise (my earlier posts here), I recently had the good fortune of its maker OBDLink replacing it with a new unit, and simultaneously provide a firmware update. The clue was that the EX model was showing different hp and tq numbers on the 'gauges' (high) and on the underlying logs (lower) so I asked why.

Now they're the same: lower, to the point where these readings are now about 200hp/210tq. More reasonable in view of the pushback my 'findings' received originally that showed much higher power ratings. And these new ones are reasonably close to what the Matchbot app suggests with my settings for bsfc and v.e.

My original search was not for power ratings but to learn the boost of the particular engine I have, which is the Thailand model known as the L15BG and comes w/out a boost gauge of its own. The good news for me: the boost reading is a minimum of the 18.4 psi gage that I had expected, and recently I've had a reading of 19.3 gage which suggests that the engine is set up to match the L15BE in the Accord, which is 20.2 psi gage. The Wiki chart for the L15 engines suggest this also. No matter, time will tell:

Soon to find out what the results are with E85 given that this is Honda's FFV and the car is rated for same. The EX by OBDLink allows me to chart spark advance, too, which at boosts above 5000 rpm have changed from as much as -10.5 degs to as much as +18.5 degs at those higher revs. This is a result of my switching from 91RON that is minimum for the car here, to 98RON that is the highest octane available here.

The OBDLink is also charting the lowered intake temps I was able to achieve with the factory engine but with shields (1) between the intake crossover pipe and the hot turbine (the Honda engine was designed to run at temps up to 2000F for fuel economy and pollution reasons) and a now revised snorkel that channels cold 'ram' air from the forward lip of the bonnet. Temps are the same at the engine's sensor as ambient, which then means that air density is equal to the pressure ratio of the compressor, which means more fuel by command of the ECU, which means more power. I'm unable to chart fueling though.

As mentioned, next to see how the readings change going from 98RON to E85. Do already know that my 'mpg' will get noticeably worse.

 

[rednichols]

Discovered that when the OBDLink EX is set to 'e85', with no other changes the power readings skyrocket but without the related PIDs changing, too, in support. E.g, mass airflow stays the same, of course, so the indicated hp and tq increases are not plausible. Ditto the absolute load value still indicating 200 hp vs the 'new' indication of nearly 300.

In reaction to that finding, even though I still have e85 in the tank I switched the reader back to the 'gasoline/petrol' setting. And notified the OBDLink company of a flaw. They've already been gracious enough to have replaced the unit.

Also am wondering at the boost values being notably lower. A coincidence of a tank full of e85? Not something I would've expected given the higher octane of e85; even vs the 98 ron I have been running.

 

[speedyserg]

Discovered that when the OBDLink EX is set to 'e85', with no other changes the power readings skyrocket but without the related PIDs changing, too, in support. E.g, mass airflow stays the same, of course, so the indicated hp and tq increases are not plausible. Ditto the absolute load value still indicating 200 hp vs the 'new' indication of nearly 300.

In reaction to that finding, even though I still have e85 in the tank I switched the reader back to the 'gasoline/petrol' setting. And notified the OBDLink company of a flaw. They've already been gracious enough to have replaced the unit.

Also am wondering at the boost values being notably lower. A coincidence of a tank full of e85? Not something I would've expected given the higher octane of e85; even vs the 98 ron I have been running.

The hp estimates from the OBD readers are junk - they use math from the MAF and isn't really close to actual power.
Also you don't need a tank full of E85 in a stock car - 1 to 2 gallons for a full tank is enough to basically get to the max the stock ecu settings can optimize. After that you'll be slower and running lean. If you put a full tank without a tune your car is not going to be faster but actually slower - the E needs 30% more fuel flow for a given power level and the stock ECU cannot compensate for straight E85 out of the box without a tune for it.

My car doesn't even use the maf signal anymore on e50 - before I deleted the signal I had changed my maf housing to a 4" housing - the obd power reading said I was making around 430 when the actual dyno was around 550-560whp ....why? Because it was using the voltage signal of the maf and turning 4.3 = 430hp. Nothing to do with actual power being made....you'll notice they go to a max of 500....that's because the voltage is a max of 5v ....so 5v = 500hp ....sure....on a stock 3" maf housing maybe

If you want to know the actual power you are making you'll need a dyno that's properly calibrated. Combined with acceleration data and trap speed you can verify the power. Just using a voltage signal? Nah

If you want to run E you should get a flex fuel sensor and a tune specifically for it - your going to give your car issues running full E on a stock calibration.

 

[rednichols]

It's unfortunate that the most recent post is largely incorrect and based on some assumptions.

The OBDLink product, anyway, reads from SAE sensors (not calculations), and THOSE are providing me with correct info. Agreed that the power and torque readings (not SAE sensors) are calcs and they have been wrong in the past. What I'm telling you now is that the SAE sensors are showing readings that say the power/torque calcs are correct: 'absolute load value' is well known to equal torque, 'maf' is well known to equal hp when multiplied by 10 or so; and all match up at 210 hp and tq.

And the SAE sensor for the air/fuel ration says the computer is enriching for all situations including E85. As I've said countless times here, this is the BG motor from Thailand that is Honda's FFV: made for all fuels except diesel. The richest I've seen to date is 7.7, and in the main the reading is what is wanted, which is stoich at normal running. The most advance I've seen above 5,000 rpm is 19.5 advance. Happy to post the logs if that would make this person happier.

I'm confident that the readings suggesting 210 power and torque are accurate. No, it doesn't matter in the scheme of things. I only started on this project at all because the CRV 2023 doesn't come with a boost gauge. Now the SAE sensor is reading out a small range between 17 psi and 19 psi. I'm not out to prove anything to anyone here (except that it's false to say that the ECU is not compensating for fuel types and engine mods).

 

[speedyserg]

It's unfortunate that the most recent post is largely incorrect and based on some assumptions.

The OBDLink product, anyway, reads from SAE sensors (not calculations), and THOSE are providing me with correct info. Agreed that the power and torque readings (not SAE sensors) are calcs and they have been wrong in the past. What I'm telling you now is that the SAE sensors are showing readings that say the power/torque calcs are correct: 'absolute load value' is well known to equal torque, 'maf' is well known to equal hp when multiplied by 10 or so; and all match up at 210 hp and tq.

And the SAE sensor for the air/fuel ration says the computer is enriching for all situations including E85. As I've said countless times here, this is the BG motor from Thailand that is Honda's FFV: made for all fuels except diesel. The richest I've seen to date is 7.7, and in the main the reading is what is wanted, which is stoich at normal running. The most advance I've seen above 5,000 rpm is 19.5 advance. Happy to post the logs if that would make this person happier.

I'm confident that the readings suggesting 210 power and torque are accurate. No, it doesn't matter in the scheme of things. I only started on this project at all because the CRV 2023 doesn't come with a boost gauge. Now the SAE sensor is reading out a small range between 17 psi and 19 psi. I'm not out to prove anything to anyone here (except that it's false to say that the ECU is not compensating for fuel types and engine mods).

An L15B7 on 30% ethanol properly tuned would easily make 250 to 270whp
To he making 210whp with full E85 proves the tune isn't optimized for the fuel - again - basic math is ethanol is 30% less efficient for a given power level which means you need a fuel system that's dumping 30% more volume to achieve the same whp as gasoline.

No matter your opinion you can't change the chemical makeup of ethanol or gasoline - these are facts. Going full E on a stock tune is not only a bad idea - your fuel system will be unable to keep up anyway.

That isn't an opinion - it's math.

I'm making over 600whp on ethanol and even I don't run full e85 on 32psi with 25* of ignition timing. You won't gain much past e55-e60 anyway and the downsides of ethanol aren't worth running full E on a near stock car anyway.

You want to run full E on a stock tune - be my guest - you can find out what happens to your paper fuel filter the hard way

 

[rednichols]

You've got blinders on, I haven't mentioned any of the things you're raving about (not even your associating e85 with 210 hp; that's when using e10 on my car).

My post is about how well Honda engineered the L15BG (in Brazil required to run on up to E100) to use all fuels. And here, with 91ron, 94ron (e10), 96ron, and 98ron, the 'math' says that my stock, unmodified L15BG is making 210 hp and tq coupled to the CVT trans.

IMHO my using e85 doesn't help or hurt the performance of this Honda at all. Agreed that e85 buggers-up fuel economy. But you're incorrect in thinking that the ECU is not adjusting the air-fuel ratio, and spark, to match the fuel changeovers; unless your L15B7s are not the equal in engineered to the Thailand FFV motor.

I claim no performance increase from my mods. I'm giving all the credit to Honda for the 210/210 power and torque on standard fuels, with the highest boost reading to date being just short of 20 psi. And that is at least plausible with the 20.2 psi claim for the stock Accord.

I'm thinking that your posts are about 'being the most right' on this forum, but you're missing out on a lot by sticking with what you know already.

 

[sbace_hamb]

An L15B7 on 30% ethanol properly tuned would easily make 250 to 270whp

You may be missing that OP is talking about the L15BG engine, which is a flex fuel engine, and not the L15B7, which is not.

 

[speedyserg]

You may be missing that OP is talking about the L15BG engine, which is a flex fuel engine, and not the L15B7, which is not.

Won't change how ethanol reacts - even the stock L15B7 can be run on about E15ish as most fuels have ethanol to boost octane aka E10. As you approach e85 you have all the drawbacks with not much gain so power wise e50-e60 is the sweet spot. Less water issues, hard starts etc.

If his stock ecu is allowing full e85 and only making 210whp it would be the most conservative tune on the planet or have a smaller turbo than even the L15b7 has which is doubtful but possible.

Either way a real tune will show some massive gains on even e30 where you get most of the benefits of ethanol without the drawbacks - e50ish gains a touch more but also a little more of the issues of ethanol.

I've been tuned on e30+ or more for 2+ years and lost an injector from the oem fuel filter falling apart on elevated ethanol content. These injectors have tiny openings so it doesn't take much for them to get stuck open.

Losing a set of $800 injectors is one thing but now my injectors are $1600+ so not trying to lose a set of those

Luckily JSR developed a low pressure upgrade that deletes the oem fuel filter and replaces it with a stainless fuel filter that's easy to clean and lasts forever. I'll be installing that along with the hellcat fuel pump it comes with 535lph pump. Uses a return style system so plenty of fuel available for 750ish whp.

I love ethanol but people also have to know it comes with some issues you have to prepare for - including changing your oil more often as it dilutes it even more than gasoline does. I'm on a 5-30 Mobil 1 and change about every 2 to 3k ideally. Don't want to extend the intervals out too long especially when your pushing the engine hard .....I'm at 490wtq so I need to be a touch more mindful than most.

Since Brazil is using ethanol at the pumps I'm sure honda added a flex sensor to adjust the mixture - not that hard. They would have also have had to use larger injectors which are probably Accord injectors- not really ground breaking. The L15b7s in the US do not come with a flex sensor or Accord injectors but can still adjust to elevated ethanol levels of about e15ish - this is about 1.5 to 2 gallons of ethanol per full tank.
The ecu will adjust long and short term fuel trims to adjust the mixture as the elevated ethanol will allow for a touch more ignition timing while also needing more volume for the given torque requests.

https://www.phearable.net/tuning-software/10thgencivic/phearable-stage2.5-civicsi-godmode.html

This is for L15B7s on ethanol with a target of e30 to e35 (stock fuel systems)

Level 1: Low Boost / ~21.5psi** (226 HP 271 TQ)
Level 2: Medium Boost / ~24psi** (251 HP 283 TQ)
Level 3: High Boost / ~27psi** (277 HP 320 TQ)
*Each boost level tapers down 1-2 psi in the higher rpms.
*Peak boost levels are at E30-E35
*Power level target is the same with or without sport mode enabled
**Maximum boost pressure target is an approximation, and may vary due to atmospheric conditions and other conditions
*For use with the factory turbo ONLY.

 

[rednichols]

You may be missing that OP is talking about the L15BG engine, which is a flex fuel engine, and not the L15B7, which is not.

And that I'm not really talking about Honda engines on ethanol, nor about tuning them. My car is not tuned and I must keep it that way, for warranty reasons (a 'flash' will show up at service, next one is only a few hundred Ks away).

I'm also not saying that 210/210 is remarkable; I'm just stating what the so-called 'junk' reader is showing: a reasonable, plausible result on a stock engine that nevertheless is not available in USA (the BG engine).

 

[speedyserg]

And that I'm not really talking about Honda engines on ethanol, nor about tuning them. My car is not tuned and I must keep it that way, for warranty reasons (a 'flash' will show up at service, next one is only a few hundred Ks away).

I'm also not saying that 210/210 is remarkable; I'm just stating what the so-called 'junk' reader is showing: a reasonable, plausible result on a stock engine that nevertheless is not available in USA (the BG engine).

Validate it with an actual dyno or its just another pie in the sky calc which is useless

 

[rednichols]

Validate it with an actual dyno or its just another pie in the sky calc which is useless

Let's face it serge, unless my car were tested on your mates dyno, you wouldn't believe my local dynos readings anyway!

 

[gtman]

Let's face it serge, unless my car were tested on your mates dyno, you wouldn't believe my local dynos readings anyway!

How so?

Sergio gave you a simple way to validate your power numbers for the community.

 

[rednichols]

How so?

Sergio gave you a simple way to validate your power numbers for the community.

If he's paying, sure, why not?

 

[gtman]

If he's paying, sure, why not?

The reason you're getting very little response here is this is a Civic forum. You have a CR-V with a different engine than 99.9% of the people here have. What has been the reaction from the people on the CR-V forums?

 

[rednichols]

If he's paying, sure, why not?

Now for YOUR assignment, GTman, you are to locate a dyno near me that will do an awd petrol passenger car. About an hour's drive suits me because Queensland is several times the state of Texas and just anything is impossible because Australia is literally the size of the continental USA.

Here's a starter list for you to call:

https://www.localsearch.com.au/find/dyno-tuning/sunshine-coast-qld

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