Dealer diagnostic...."specialists"

[nickyd]

2017 civic touring 1.5L sedan.

At 62,000 miles out of nowhere the check engine light hits with a "emissions problem", followed by several other warnings for various systems (park assist, stability assist, road departure system, etc...). I get out the code reader and its a P0172- mix is too rich, followed by imbalanced cylinder codes for 3 out of 4.

After doing some research online I cleaned my MAF, changed plugs, looked for soy wires being chewed up, made sure filters were good, checked for any obvious vacuum leaks. Everything seemed fine. All my PID numbers seemed within range including O2 both wide range and post cat. Other than the DTC's the car runs well.

So I decided to take it to the dealer.... that's when the downward spiral of frustration started. First I sat around for a few hours and paid the $158 Diagnostic fee. After a few hours and arranging a rental car they let me know I was ready. So after I canceled rental and the tech told me that he reinitialized the ECU and codes. I asked him about the TSB's that are know for my make and model and he said they weren't the issue. So I leave and get about 200 feet, I turn on the automatic climate control and the check engine light hits immediately.

I turn back around and drop car off. About 24 hrs later I finally get a call from the dealer asking for approval for 3 more hrs of Diagnostic at $158/hr. Seriously? Another $500 just for you to tell me what is wrong? I don't understand. The tech refused to call me back for explanation and only told the "service specialist" to call me back. So I then asked for the service manager. He immediately had an attitude and was annoyed that he even had to talk to me. He said "what do you want me to say? We need to do pressure tests, and check valve clearance so we need more hours.

Am I the only one who thinks its ridiculous to spend over $650 just to tell me what is wrong with a car 2k miles over warrant? I am afraid to know what it would cost to repair. I was so freaking angry at the service manager and his attitude I just said forget it I will pick my car up tomorrow and go elsewhere. I have always been a loyal Honda customer but man this leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

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[TimberWolf]

You need to pay for their time. What is so difficult to understand? When you go to a doctor, or a lawyer, you have to pay for their time, even if nothing ends up being wrong. Same for pretty much any trade or professional.

 

[nickyd]

You need to pay for their time. What is so difficult to understand? When you go to a doctor, or a lawyer, you have to pay for their time, even if nothing ends up being wrong. Same for pretty much any trade or professional.

I don't disagree with you. Perhaps I just disagree with how much it costs for his potentially inefficient assessment. Especially considering he was convinced he had it fixed the first time. I also don't understand the poor service either, not at that premium.

 

[Design]

You're outside of warranty. Why not take it to a reputable 3rd party shop in your area? They cost probably 70% of what the dealer would.

 

[nickyd]

I will at this point. I was just pretty sure it was caused by one of the service bulletins, at which point it would have been completely covered.

 

[shoegazer]

I also cringe at $150 for a computer reboot and a declaration of "it's fixed".

My gut says it's an electrical sensor/wiring issue and not something mechanical. Did they take the thing on a test drive themselves after they 'fixed it'?

Lastly... and I know it sounds idiotic... but how's the battery?

 

[nickyd]

I also cringe at $150 for a computer reboot and a declaration of "it's fixed".

My gut says it's an electrical sensor/wiring issue and not something mechanical. Did they take the thing on a test drive themselves after they 'fixed it'?

Lastly... and I know it sounds idiotic... but how's the battery?

I agree completely with the thought it’s electrical. I had asked that thy look at connections from below while on lift. These have those soy wire covers and rodents love them. I found a ton of acorns in the engine bay but checked every connection I could from the top. He said he didn’t see anything. So why jump to valve clearance adjustment?!?

I thought battery potentially as well but it is at 14.5 every time I check.

He said he drove it 6 miles. Obviously he didn’t do a second start, which is when the fault will usually kick. The suggestions are appreciated

 

[shoegazer]

Oh, man... the acorn stash is, to me, a red flag. Given how tiny/thin those wires are; I imagine it'd be difficult to inspect them completely.

Maybe save your money on DX fees for the moment and just live with the CEL while ya' concentrate on the wires?

When my Sensing camera failed; the first thing the adviser mentioned was rodent damage. I bought an electronic repeller that lives on my garage floor.

Good luck running it down. I believe that other makes have this issue as well. Maybe there is some wisdom/experience elsewhere on the Interweb re: likely locations of damage in proximity to acorn stashes? I dunno.

And afterward... get a fox piss air freshener for under the hood

 

[latole]

I don't disagree with you. Perhaps I just disagree with how much it costs for his potentially inefficient assessment. Especially considering he was convinced he had it fixed the first time. I also don't understand the poor service either, not at that premium.

I agree.

 

[nickyd]

Oh, man... the acorn stash is, to me, a red flag. Given how tiny/thin those wires are; I imagine it'd be difficult to inspect them completely.

Maybe save your money on DX fees for the moment and just live with the CEL while ya' concentrate on the wires?

When my Sensing camera failed; the first thing the adviser mentioned was rodent damage. I bought an electronic repeller that lives on my garage floor.

Good luck running it down. I believe that other makes have this issue as well. Maybe there is some wisdom/experience elsewhere on the Interweb re: likely locations of damage in proximity to acorn stashes? I dunno.

And afterward... get a fox piss air freshener for under the hood

You sir, just might deserve my $158 for that diagnosis. Sound advice lol.

 

[shoegazer]

Nah... I'm just OCD. I did think more about this overnight and I'm not 100% sold on the battery. Unless you have load tested it; I found it curious that the error happened just as you turned on the air. If your battery is the original (2017); you may have not much to lose by replacing it and crossing that potential issue off the list for good.

 

[Gruber]

In contrast to lawyers, car mechanics can't be paid just for their wasted time. They only are paid for what they have achieved. For example, you pay for AC compressor replacement, and that takes a standard amount of time, like, say, 8 hours. If a lousy mechanic takes 16 hours to do the job, he has to work for the extra 8 hours on his time. Cars are not court cases; they are simple and predictable mechanisms designed by the manufacturer. They can be analyzed by simple procedures by those well trained and using custom manufacturer's tools.

The same is valid for diagnosis: the final product is the diagnosis, not their time wasted. If you paid $158 for an hour of diagnosis, then they should give you a printed result of their labors. You could even take that paper somewhere else for possible repair. Just like there are set times for each repair, there are set times for complete diagnosis of different systems. It's not open ended, as in "we worked for hours and still don't know anything, but you still have to pay for our time." If it was so, the most ignorant and lousy mechanics would make the most money.

This applies particularly to dealer's authorized service. Independent mechanic can claim these cars are stupid and it's not his fault it takes forever to figure it out. But the manufacturer's service can't use that excuse.

 

[calonzo]

In contrast to lawyers, car mechanics can't be paid just for their wasted time. They only are paid for what they have achieved. For example, you pay for AC compressor replacement, and that takes a standard amount of time, like, say, 8 hours. If a lousy mechanic takes 16 hours to do the job, he has to work for the extra 8 hours on his time. Cars are not court cases; they are simple and predictable mechanisms designed by the manufacturer. They can be analyzed by simple procedures by those well trained and using custom manufacturer's tools.

The same is valid for diagnosis: the final product is the diagnosis, not their time wasted. If you paid $158 for an hour of diagnosis, then they should give you a printed result of their labors. You could even take that paper somewhere else for possible repair. Just like there are set times for each repair, there are set times for complete diagnosis of different systems. It's not open ended, as in "we worked for hours and still don't know anything, but you still have to pay for our time." If it was so, the most ignorant and lousy mechanics would make the most money.

This applies particularly to dealer's authorized service. Independent mechanic can claim these cars are stupid and it's not his fault it takes forever to figure it out. But the manufacturer's service can't use that excuse.

I agree that we shouldn't pay more for a job that takes longer due to incompetence.

But I disagree that today's computerized cars are simple and predictable mechanisms. Mechanics don't know everything that there is to know about the decisions the computers are making. They can only go by the codes the computer gives them. And they don't always add up to something obvious. There is no absolute amount of time to figure out the cause of a symptom. Only once the cause is found, can the amount of time to fix it be calculated to some standard.

If we think that a mechanic (or lawyer) is incompetent, then our only recourse is not to continue to hire that person again.

 

[tacthecat]

1) Ability to charge the battery (14.5 volts) isn't the same as battery voltage. (If the measurement was at engine idle the battery is very weak, otherwise it's at the high end of the charging range. )
2) Suggest taking a hard look at all the places the mice etc have "hidden" their stash. First place is the air intake path from the intake pipe to air box and filter then to the MAF. The AC issue may be engine loading due to restricted air flow or a weak battery. Otherwise, the various other alerts would indicate, possibly, they've eaten their way into the passenger compartment and are nesting/storing goodies in the ventilation system and electricals.
Keep us updated on the issue and resolution.

 

[nickyd]

Thanks Tac. Perhaps I should have been a little bit more clear on the battery voltage. The 14.5 was the reading from the live stream data while driving. I did a load test and at cold state it read 13.2V then with checking the minimum at start up was10.4V

I believe there was a squirrel in the engine bay but I think he has moved on. I should check the compartment inside that’s a great tip. I have already Taken off and looked down the intake pipe remove the filter and cleaned the Maf with proper cleaner.

it is still throwing misfire codes into rich mixture code. I’m going to try to get underneath and inspect some of the wiring the next day I have off. There is a service bulletin for the make model and year of my car that has exactly the same symptoms but the dealership told me that that wasn’t a problem. TSB 19-038 I still would love to know if my vin falls under this!

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